A/C Compressor/clutch problem
#1
04-25-2013 | 09:24 PM
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Posts: 59
A/C Compressor/clutch problem
Yesterday I turned on the A/C and heard a grinding sound and now cold air. Today with hood open, car idling, I turned on the A/C. Very obvious grinding sound. I look at the compressor and the outer most metal plate on the clutch is stationary and I can see small grindings (pieces of metal) coming from behind this plate where it, it's mounting hardware or whatever is grinding against what is behind it. (won't turn A/C on again!)
1) Is this just a bad clutch? If so can I replace it while compressor is still installed? As I was typing my 'previous A/C rebuild story' below, I think the answer is (crap) no.
The A/C system was completely rebuilt just under 2 years ago.
2) What are the odds that it might just be the clutch?
3) If I bite the bullet and let the A/C shop supply the parts, can they check the compressor? (and maybe I get lucky and it is just a clutch?)
The background:
I actually had the original clutch and/or compressor fail about 4-5 years ago. The outer plate on the clutch had fallen off and I had it. The A/C shop said it might just be the clutch, but it was more likely that the compressor failed and caused the clutch to break. I went w/o A/C for two years. In May 2011, I decided to not risk paying the labor just for a new clutch, especially since the A/C sytem had been dormant for two years.
Anyway, to save some money I found a local A/C shop willing to do the labor with parts I saved money on by buying online. They charged $450 for flush, install all (my) new parts and 1 lb of R134. I got the parts via E-Bay from DiscountACParts.com in San Diego.
New compressor (12 mo warr.) $245
Accuml./ Drier $45.00
Expansion device $55
O-rings and solvent $25
With $90 kit discount + tax the parts were $303 OTDoor.
http://www.discountacparts.com/addto...~60-01230.asp#
1) Is this just a bad clutch? If so can I replace it while compressor is still installed? As I was typing my 'previous A/C rebuild story' below, I think the answer is (crap) no.
The A/C system was completely rebuilt just under 2 years ago.
2) What are the odds that it might just be the clutch?
3) If I bite the bullet and let the A/C shop supply the parts, can they check the compressor? (and maybe I get lucky and it is just a clutch?)
The background:
I actually had the original clutch and/or compressor fail about 4-5 years ago. The outer plate on the clutch had fallen off and I had it. The A/C shop said it might just be the clutch, but it was more likely that the compressor failed and caused the clutch to break. I went w/o A/C for two years. In May 2011, I decided to not risk paying the labor just for a new clutch, especially since the A/C sytem had been dormant for two years.
Anyway, to save some money I found a local A/C shop willing to do the labor with parts I saved money on by buying online. They charged $450 for flush, install all (my) new parts and 1 lb of R134. I got the parts via E-Bay from DiscountACParts.com in San Diego.
New compressor (12 mo warr.) $245
Accuml./ Drier $45.00
Expansion device $55
O-rings and solvent $25
With $90 kit discount + tax the parts were $303 OTDoor.
http://www.discountacparts.com/addto...~60-01230.asp#
#3
04-25-2013 | 11:42 PM
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Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 59
2000 JXI convertible. Sorry, listed on my tranny thread and forgot to say it hear. Also, forget this site does not show car info for each poster. Good reminder to create a signature with my car info. Off to do that now
#4
04-26-2013 | 10:49 AM
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 8,891
From: Norcross GA
COMPRESSOR
DESCRIPTION
The TRS90 is a fixed displacement type compressor TRS90 Compressor This compressor uses an integral thermal limiter switch to protect it from overheating. The system uses polyalkylene glycol synthetic wax-free refrigerant oil SP-15 PAG.
CAUTION: Cleanliness is extremely important. Clean the surfaces around the suction and discharge ports of the compressor before opening the system. If compressor is removed from vehicle, apply tape to the opened ports to prevent any contamination.
OPERATION
The compressor is driven by the engine through an electric clutch, drive pulley and belt arrangement. The compressor is lubricated by refrigerant oil that is circulated throughout the refrigerant system with the refrigerant.
The compressor draws in low-pressure refrigerant vapor from the evaporator through its suction port. It then compresses the refrigerant into a high-pressure, high-temperature refrigerant vapor, which is then pumped to the condenser through the compressor discharge port.
The compressor cannot be repaired. If faulty or damaged, the entire compressor must be replaced. The compressor clutch, pulley, clutch coil, and thermal limiter switch are available for service
DESCRIPTION
The TRS90 is a fixed displacement type compressor TRS90 Compressor This compressor uses an integral thermal limiter switch to protect it from overheating. The system uses polyalkylene glycol synthetic wax-free refrigerant oil SP-15 PAG.
CAUTION: Cleanliness is extremely important. Clean the surfaces around the suction and discharge ports of the compressor before opening the system. If compressor is removed from vehicle, apply tape to the opened ports to prevent any contamination.
OPERATION
The compressor is driven by the engine through an electric clutch, drive pulley and belt arrangement. The compressor is lubricated by refrigerant oil that is circulated throughout the refrigerant system with the refrigerant.
The compressor draws in low-pressure refrigerant vapor from the evaporator through its suction port. It then compresses the refrigerant into a high-pressure, high-temperature refrigerant vapor, which is then pumped to the condenser through the compressor discharge port.
The compressor cannot be repaired. If faulty or damaged, the entire compressor must be replaced. The compressor clutch, pulley, clutch coil, and thermal limiter switch are available for service
#5
04-26-2013 | 12:06 PM
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Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 59
Crud, not good...
Chrysler Tech,
Thanks for the detailed response! I do not have the ability to evacuate the system and capture the old freon. I know it is illegal, but can a DIY mechanic just pull the compressor and replace it, then recharge the system (adding oil)? I do have a friend who does industrial HVAC. I could check if he has a way to capture old freon. I'm pretty sure he has vacuum gear. etc on his truck, just not sure of the storage/filtration ability for freon in system now.
I called the A/C shop that did the complete rebuild on my 2000 Sebring's A/C two years ago. The woman said it's probably the compressor and they cannot just replace compressor w/o dryer and expansion valve, system flush, etc. They will call back with a quote, but I'd expect that number will be over $1,000.
Thanks for the detailed response! I do not have the ability to evacuate the system and capture the old freon. I know it is illegal, but can a DIY mechanic just pull the compressor and replace it, then recharge the system (adding oil)? I do have a friend who does industrial HVAC. I could check if he has a way to capture old freon. I'm pretty sure he has vacuum gear. etc on his truck, just not sure of the storage/filtration ability for freon in system now.
I called the A/C shop that did the complete rebuild on my 2000 Sebring's A/C two years ago. The woman said it's probably the compressor and they cannot just replace compressor w/o dryer and expansion valve, system flush, etc. They will call back with a quote, but I'd expect that number will be over $1,000.
Last edited by davekro; 04-26-2013 at 12:20 PM.
#6
04-26-2013 | 03:07 PM
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Member
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 59
Is a DIY compressor replacement feasible?
Have people done this with long term success? If so, is it just a roll of the dice? I got a quote of $925 from the shop that installed my parts and did the complete A/C service 2 years ago (with 10% off if I 'like' them on Facebook, so about $830).
I don't know the odds of the discountACparts.com compressor going bad prematurely on it's own vs. something not done right by the A/C shop doing the service. This local shop was cheaper than other local shops.
Any comments or suggestions welcomed. It is tough to spend again so soon on an expensive repair.
I don't know the odds of the discountACparts.com compressor going bad prematurely on it's own vs. something not done right by the A/C shop doing the service. This local shop was cheaper than other local shops.
Any comments or suggestions welcomed. It is tough to spend again so soon on an expensive repair.
#7
04-28-2013 | 10:24 PM
Thread Starter
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Member
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 59
COMPRESSOR
DESCRIPTION
... If compressor is removed from vehicle, apply tape to the opened ports to prevent any contamination.
...The compressor cannot be repaired. If faulty or damaged, the entire compressor must be replaced. The compressor clutch, pulley, clutch coil, and thermal limiter switch are available for service
DESCRIPTION
... If compressor is removed from vehicle, apply tape to the opened ports to prevent any contamination.
...The compressor cannot be repaired. If faulty or damaged, the entire compressor must be replaced. The compressor clutch, pulley, clutch coil, and thermal limiter switch are available for service
2) The other thing required is a flush of the system. Can this be done (by the shop) AFTER I have installed the new parts?
3) Would SP-15 oil be added to the new compressor when I install it, or would it be added somehow when the shop adds back the freon from the recovery system?
4) Does the shop's recovery system just hold one vehicles used freon, then put that same freon back in the vehicle it came out of, or does it just get filtered and is held in a larger tank and is considered good to go back into any vehicle? (ie. we took out 1.25 lbs R134, we owe you back 1.25 lbs.... and I don't have to hurry back to free up their recovery machine)
5) Is the second part of the recovery process holding a vacuum to remove contaminants?? Or just to test that the system holds a vacuum (leak test)? How long is recommended to hold a vacuum?
Any caveats on this idea?
I looked at the (3) parts involved and it seems pretty simple to remove/replace. Since my system cooled great until the compressor stopped and it had all new parts (and seals I assume), I think it should be safe from leaks.
6) I see today the 2 year old compressor is Meridian brand (meridianautoparts.com). Any idea if this is a reputable brand?
Thanks for any thoughts you are willing to share.
#8
04-29-2013 | 10:29 AM
Senior Member
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 5,649
From: Detroit suburb
2) You may not really need a system flush if it was done a couple of years ago. Stuff builds up slowly and you are probably not so crudded up yet that it's a real problem. The receiver drier is a filter that traps that stuff anyway so if you're replacing that again there's even less need for a flush. Usually the compressor warranty requires a flush so if that's your priority, then you might want to have it done regardless. Talk it over with the shop.
3) There's a certain quantity of oil that you replace for each component of the system you install. Often the compressor comes from the factory with its oil already in it. Read through the compressor literature for that information. If you can beg, borrow or steal a shop manual, it will state the amount of oil needed for each component. Quite frankly, if you are reasonably close to the correct total amount, you'll be fine. Way too much or way too little creates problems but close enough is good enough. This is another thing to discuss with the shop. They can add oil if needed.
4) They recycle that stuff. You don't get your old stuff back. They probably won't even give you a financial credit for what they pull out.
5) There are three reasons for the vacuum. a) remove the air from the system. That happens as soon as vacuum is reached. b) remove moisture. That takes some time but if you're replacing the receiver-dryer, is less important. c) check for leaks. If it won't hold a vacuum, it won't hold pressure. Time is good there, too.
6) no opinion on brand names. They are probably a re-manufacturer anyway, but that doesn't mean they don't know what they are doing.
It's a good plan. Have a long talk with the shop and ask lots of questions. All the questions you have asked here are good things to discuss with them. You can purchase their services for what you need and do what you can for yourself.
3) There's a certain quantity of oil that you replace for each component of the system you install. Often the compressor comes from the factory with its oil already in it. Read through the compressor literature for that information. If you can beg, borrow or steal a shop manual, it will state the amount of oil needed for each component. Quite frankly, if you are reasonably close to the correct total amount, you'll be fine. Way too much or way too little creates problems but close enough is good enough. This is another thing to discuss with the shop. They can add oil if needed.
4) They recycle that stuff. You don't get your old stuff back. They probably won't even give you a financial credit for what they pull out.
5) There are three reasons for the vacuum. a) remove the air from the system. That happens as soon as vacuum is reached. b) remove moisture. That takes some time but if you're replacing the receiver-dryer, is less important. c) check for leaks. If it won't hold a vacuum, it won't hold pressure. Time is good there, too.
6) no opinion on brand names. They are probably a re-manufacturer anyway, but that doesn't mean they don't know what they are doing.
It's a good plan. Have a long talk with the shop and ask lots of questions. All the questions you have asked here are good things to discuss with them. You can purchase their services for what you need and do what you can for yourself.
#9
04-29-2013 | 11:38 AM
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Member
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 59
2) You may not really need a system flush if it was done a couple of years ago. Stuff builds up slowly and you are probably not so crudded up yet that it's a real problem. The receiver drier is a filter that traps that stuff anyway so if you're replacing that again there's even less need for a flush. Usually the compressor warranty requires a flush so if that's your priority, then you might want to have it done regardless. Talk it over with the shop.
3) There's a certain quantity of oil that you replace for each component of the system you install. Often the compressor comes from the factory with its oil already in it. Read through the compressor literature for that information. If you can beg, borrow or steal a shop manual, it will state the amount of oil needed for each component. Quite frankly, if you are reasonably close to the correct total amount, you'll be fine. Way too much or way too little creates problems but close enough is good enough. This is another thing to discuss with the shop. They can add oil if needed.
4) They recycle that stuff. You don't get your old stuff back. They probably won't even give you a financial credit for what they pull out.
5) There are three reasons for the vacuum. a) remove the air from the system. That happens as soon as vacuum is reached. b) remove moisture. That takes some time but if you're replacing the receiver-dryer, is less important. c) check for leaks. If it won't hold a vacuum, it won't hold pressure. Time is good there, too.
6) no opinion on brand names. They are probably a re-manufacturer anyway, but that doesn't mean they don't know what they are doing.
It's a good plan. Have a long talk with the shop and ask lots of questions. All the questions you have asked here are good things to discuss with them. You can purchase their services for what you need and do what you can for yourself.
3) There's a certain quantity of oil that you replace for each component of the system you install. Often the compressor comes from the factory with its oil already in it. Read through the compressor literature for that information. If you can beg, borrow or steal a shop manual, it will state the amount of oil needed for each component. Quite frankly, if you are reasonably close to the correct total amount, you'll be fine. Way too much or way too little creates problems but close enough is good enough. This is another thing to discuss with the shop. They can add oil if needed.
4) They recycle that stuff. You don't get your old stuff back. They probably won't even give you a financial credit for what they pull out.
5) There are three reasons for the vacuum. a) remove the air from the system. That happens as soon as vacuum is reached. b) remove moisture. That takes some time but if you're replacing the receiver-dryer, is less important. c) check for leaks. If it won't hold a vacuum, it won't hold pressure. Time is good there, too.
6) no opinion on brand names. They are probably a re-manufacturer anyway, but that doesn't mean they don't know what they are doing.
It's a good plan. Have a long talk with the shop and ask lots of questions. All the questions you have asked here are good things to discuss with them. You can purchase their services for what you need and do what you can for yourself.
3) The factory manual says SP15PAG oil: (total system 5 oz) condenser 1 oz, Evaporator 2 oz, filter dryer 1 oz, line blown 1.5 oz. Sum of parts = 5.5 oz. but compressor is not listed. Is this because new or reman. compressors com with the oil installed already?
4) With previous services, I was told: "We pulled 'x' lbs out, which we will put back. We needed to add 'y' lbs (small amount) to fill system to spec. amount." So I am confused on this.
4a) So if I just opened the system and installed new parts, took to shop for flush, vacuum and recharge, aside from the small pollution, would there be any downside to this plan?
5) Good info. So is 30 mins sufficient, or is hours better? (assuming there are no leaks and system holds vacuum/pressure.
6) This Meridian offered a reman or new (I bought new 2 yrs ago). I was trying to guess the more likely premature compressor failure. Bad part or improper installation (or amount of oil?). I had felt good about the shop, but what do I know. ANother site recommended Denso or Visteon as good compressors. Rock Auto has new Denso for $215.
Last edited by davekro; 04-29-2013 at 11:56 AM.
#10
04-29-2013 | 01:08 PM
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Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 59
Does 2000 Sebring convert. have a dual pass A/C condenser? The manual does not mention it. I ask because reading on compressor failures*, they say: "Most modern condensers are “dual pass”. This means that the high-pressure line from the compressor comes into the condenser at the top and splits into at least two parallel passages. If one of these passages happens to be clean, and the other is totally clogged, the flush will follow the path of least resistance and flow through the open side. This leaves a tremendous amount of contaminates in the system unnoticed by the installer. If a significant amount of these contaminates leaves the condenser, it will flow to other components and will cause the slowing or stoppage of the lubricant flow. The proper installation of an inline filter can help to avoid this problem."
Since my compressor failed in 2 years, I am curious of possible reasons that may have been missed last time (condenser was not replaced. Just compressor, rcvr/drier & expans. valve).
* http://www.4s.com/Upload/Four%20Seas...20FAILURES.PDF
Since my compressor failed in 2 years, I am curious of possible reasons that may have been missed last time (condenser was not replaced. Just compressor, rcvr/drier & expans. valve).
* http://www.4s.com/Upload/Four%20Seas...20FAILURES.PDF