99 Voyager, No Crank
#1
99 Voyager, No Crank
Hey all, new here. Got a customer's vehicle with a no crank condition, and I'm running out of options. I'm going to paste my post and replys from another forum that has seemingly gone dead.
My first post.
First response.
Second response.
My final post.
I had asked that forum if anyone knew how I might be able to jump the TRS Connector so that I can force a "Park" reading to the computer, to see if this is the culprit. I can supply a pin-out of the connector if necessary.
Any other options here?
My first post.
Code:
Sorry if this has been posted before, I rarely find forum search functions to operate properly. I have a customer with a 99 Voyager, 3.3. Bare bones van, no power anything. She came to me saying that she got in the van, started it, then it died in a couple seconds. Vehicle will no longer crank at all. Ignition switch is working properly, all fuses are good. Starter fuse receives power when key is switched to the Start position, but no crank. All sensors are receiving their 5v input, but the coil pack has no incoming power, so even if I turn the key on, and open up the starter relay and manually switch it, the motor cranks but will not start. Fuel pump is priming and pressure is on par. ASD relay switches when the starter relay is closed manually. CCD Bus + and - are both perfect, communication between modules seems to be working as intended. I did a bit of reading about the solder crack on the back of the cluster, which I found to be true in this vehicle. Fixed that to no avail. I'm working from home on this one, so my diagnostic capabilities are a bit low, but I'm running out of options short of telling her it needs a computer, which I know it doesn't. I used to manage a small service station a few years ago, and ran into this exact same problem on the exact same year van. I called 3 of my master tech friends, and we couldn't find anything wrong with it. New computer didn't fix that van, either. I removed the battery and engine compartment fuse box, removed all the wiring sheaths under it and found no flaws/corrosion/splits, anything of that nature. As of this point I'm at a loss of what to try next. I have a lingering suspicion that the Trans Range Sensor is the problem, but my local Dodge dealer tells me, that particular sensor will not kill a running motor if it should happen to die while the engine is operating, which leads me back to square one. The dealer also tells me that this model year doesn't have a range sensor, and they can't order me one without taking mine out, because they don't list it. Have I stumbled upon the unicorn?
First response.
Code:
The dealer is incorrect. There is a TRS on a 1999 minivan with a 3.3, that started in 1996. The computer won't keep the engine from cranking, unless something fails in the park/neutral sense or the logic to prevent cranking while the engine is running fails. You need the wiring diagram from the factory manual, but the ground goes from the transmission through the computer to the starter relay, pin 85. The switch feeds pin 86 of the relay, pin 30 is battery feed and pin 87 is relay output to the starter.
Code:
When I had a no crank problem on my 96 mini which is a conventional 3 speed, it ended up that the computer was the problem. Some may remember when I bought this from poster "lugnut". The problem was very intermittent and only showed up occasionally so it took me forever (several months) to finally condemn the computer. His mechanics never could figure it out and that is why he sold it. What I ultimately found out is that computer imposes a ground on the coil side of the starter relay to pull the relay down. The reason the computer does this is that there is a logic circuit in the computer that will not allow the starter relay to close if the engine is running. Remember on the old cars, if you accidently turned the ignition switch to start with the engine running, you would get that horrible grinding noise? Well that won't happen anymore because the computer will not let the starter relay pull down. Through my testing, I eventually figured out that the computer would not impose a ground to the relay and that made the vehicle totally non-responsive... as if you had a bad ignition switch. The fact that your ASD and fuel pump relays are pulling down but you have no power to the coil packs, makes me suspicious that there is just a bad connection somewhere. However, you can never completely rule out the computer. You might unbolt the PDC and clean the contacts of every plug on the bottom with contact cleaner and do the same with the computer connector.
Code:
OK so a little testing this morning. Pin 85 has a full time ground, no matter the position of the key. I was under the assumption that this was a switched ground, but maybe I'm wrong. 86 receives power with Key-Start 30 has full time power and 87 works, because I can force the starter to spin by closing the relay. Now, with everything here seemingly working as intended, why won't the starter engage? In a no-crank scenario, this relay is working fine.
Any other options here?
#3
wanted to update my own thread. I had a buddy with a pretty nice scanner come over and we did some investigating.
Turns out there's a PCM strategy called DSO, or Double Start Override. This prevents the starter from being engaged while the engine is running. For whatever reason, the driver that controls this strategy was stuck On, so the PCM thought, in the case of triggering the starter, that the engine was already running.
New PCM will be installed over the weekend.
Turns out there's a PCM strategy called DSO, or Double Start Override. This prevents the starter from being engaged while the engine is running. For whatever reason, the driver that controls this strategy was stuck On, so the PCM thought, in the case of triggering the starter, that the engine was already running.
New PCM will be installed over the weekend.
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