got tranny but still dont work
#21
01-23-2010 | 04:39 PM
Senior Member
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 369
did you check for pressure with a gauge? all you need to do is tap into the 2/4 pressure port and remove the trans relay. this will show line pressue on that circuit. all solenoids are off for 2nd gear so any shorted or open wires would not matter as you'd have 2nd gear since that's the fail safe gear!
a very common problem is the genius engineers decided to use a plastic accumulator for 2/4... why TF they changed it is beyond comprension and it's only the 2/4 that happened. this was for a short run in the mid 90's and since you have a mid90's it 'could' be the problem. again a pressure test can determine this...
and you're sure it's 2nd gear that failed and not 3rd?
a very common problem is the genius engineers decided to use a plastic accumulator for 2/4... why TF they changed it is beyond comprension and it's only the 2/4 that happened. this was for a short run in the mid 90's and since you have a mid90's it 'could' be the problem. again a pressure test can determine this...
and you're sure it's 2nd gear that failed and not 3rd?
#22
01-24-2010 | 01:31 AM
Thread Starter
|
Member
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 49
I have the same exact problem you do but it's on a 1995 Chrysler Cirrus. Crank it up, put it in reverse, no problem. Put it in Drive, no problem but as soon as it shifts to 2nd, it's like it goes into Neutral and no forward gear will work. Shut the car off, crank it back up and you have 1st gear again. But as soon as it shifts to 2nd, it's like it goes to Neutral again.
Here's what I've done so far.....
I have access to a Snapon tester that I'm using to read the codes through the OBD-II connector and it also let's me do a bit of diagnostic testing. One of these is to cycle the solenoids (low-reverse, 2-4, underdrive, overdrive) on and off. When I do this test, all cycle fine except the 2-4 solenoid which sort of makes sense given the problem.
Using the Alldata online manual, I did the troubleshooting for the 2-4 solenoid. No shorted wires, no open wires, no shorted solenoids on the solenoid pack itself and the correct resistance values (1-3 ohms) between the 2-4 solenoid (pin 19 on the Trans Ctrl Module plug) and the transmission control relay output (pins 16 and 17 on the TCM plug). The end of the troubleshooting flowchart said to change the TCM which I did and I have the same problem with the 2-4 solenoid test still not working. Now then, I got a TCM from another Cirrus in the junkyard so I can't guarantee it didn't have the same issue but what's weird is that I can perform the solenoid test with the solenoid pack disconnected and again, all work fine except the 2-4 solenoid. That tells me it's the TCM (or an input to it) since at this point the tranny/solenoid pack isn't even in the circuit.
I also drove it after the TCM change and the same thing happened and it set the 36 and 52 codes. Read up on those and they don't sound too good.
So now I'm off to check some inputs. Hope this helps you out in your troubleshooting and if I do find the answer, I'll be sure to post it.
Here's what I've done so far.....
I have access to a Snapon tester that I'm using to read the codes through the OBD-II connector and it also let's me do a bit of diagnostic testing. One of these is to cycle the solenoids (low-reverse, 2-4, underdrive, overdrive) on and off. When I do this test, all cycle fine except the 2-4 solenoid which sort of makes sense given the problem.
Using the Alldata online manual, I did the troubleshooting for the 2-4 solenoid. No shorted wires, no open wires, no shorted solenoids on the solenoid pack itself and the correct resistance values (1-3 ohms) between the 2-4 solenoid (pin 19 on the Trans Ctrl Module plug) and the transmission control relay output (pins 16 and 17 on the TCM plug). The end of the troubleshooting flowchart said to change the TCM which I did and I have the same problem with the 2-4 solenoid test still not working. Now then, I got a TCM from another Cirrus in the junkyard so I can't guarantee it didn't have the same issue but what's weird is that I can perform the solenoid test with the solenoid pack disconnected and again, all work fine except the 2-4 solenoid. That tells me it's the TCM (or an input to it) since at this point the tranny/solenoid pack isn't even in the circuit.
I also drove it after the TCM change and the same thing happened and it set the 36 and 52 codes. Read up on those and they don't sound too good.
So now I'm off to check some inputs. Hope this helps you out in your troubleshooting and if I do find the answer, I'll be sure to post it.
#23
01-24-2010 | 01:38 AM
Thread Starter
|
Member
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 49
did you check for pressure with a gauge? all you need to do is tap into the 2/4 pressure port and remove the trans relay. this will show line pressue on that circuit. all solenoids are off for 2nd gear so any shorted or open wires would not matter as you'd have 2nd gear since that's the fail safe gear!
a very common problem is the genius engineers decided to use a plastic accumulator for 2/4... why TF they changed it is beyond comprension and it's only the 2/4 that happened. this was for a short run in the mid 90's and since you have a mid90's it 'could' be the problem. again a pressure test can determine this...
and you're sure it's 2nd gear that failed and not 3rd?
a very common problem is the genius engineers decided to use a plastic accumulator for 2/4... why TF they changed it is beyond comprension and it's only the 2/4 that happened. this was for a short run in the mid 90's and since you have a mid90's it 'could' be the problem. again a pressure test can determine this...
and you're sure it's 2nd gear that failed and not 3rd?
#24
01-24-2010 | 08:40 AM
Senior Member
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 369
you can't assume you have the same problem as the other guy. you problem was induced buy someone that screwed up. his problem seems to have arose while in use... these are two totally different senarios. Glad to hear you are going to use proper diagnostic equipment to pin point the problem. I think you should just pull the trans and ship it back to the guy that 'fixed' it.
#26
01-24-2010 | 11:23 AM
Senior Member
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 369
looks like you should have bought that unit you found for $300. You probably have more than that into this rebuilt one. Oh and pressure for 2nd gear will be 120-145psi. the pressure port is the 2nd one from the driver side. I suppose you need me to tell you the location of the ports?
if pressure is way below, I'd drop the valve body and do some checking... Like an air pressure test on the 2/4 piston, check 2/4 accumulator, check for the apply port to have the seal on the valve body.. Then the fun part is getting back in... as you drop the valve body, 2 pistons and some springs fall out.
if pressure is way below, I'd drop the valve body and do some checking... Like an air pressure test on the 2/4 piston, check 2/4 accumulator, check for the apply port to have the seal on the valve body.. Then the fun part is getting back in... as you drop the valve body, 2 pistons and some springs fall out.
#29
01-24-2010 | 02:01 PM
Senior Member
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 369
its a SOLENOID pack. You are getting me even more confused with your shifting explaination!!! if you loosened the 8mm bolt and pulled the 8 wire plug from the solenoid, and have NO forward what so ever, then for sure 2nd gear hydraulic circuit is your problem. so did he forget the rubber seal, accumulator, accumulator seals, install accumulator backwards, forget the clutch piston seals, etc, etc, etc (this is a rhetorical question)... The more you post, the more I think you got a great deal
#30
02-03-2010 | 08:02 PM
Junior Member
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 3
2-4 Accumulator Piston cracked! Replaced and now problem solved.
Ok guys, figured I'd post one last time and give the results of my tranny issues. 22chrysler hit the nail on the head with the accumulator piston but I wanted to tell you how I confirmed it without just digging into the tranny looking.
With the new TCM installed, I finally got some codes....a 36 and a 52. The 36 code sounded really bad and made it sound like a rebuild was in order. I then read about the code 52 and the first thing for you to do was to check the build date on the transmission.
Now this in itself was a trick since the number on my transmission was K692-2181-5112. That may tell you something but it doesn't tell me a thing. Luckily, there's a TSB out there that helps. This is TSB 211595 dated 9/15/95 with subject Accumulator - Intermittent DTC's 36, 52, or 54 Set. The first thing I noticed on this was this:
NOTE : THIS BULLETIN APPLIES TO VEHICLES EQUIPPED WITH A 41TE OR 42LE TRANSAXLE THAT WAS BUILT BETWEEN SEPT. 1, 1994 AND JULY 14, 1995 (TRANSAXLE IDENTIFICATION CODE NUMBER XXX-2088-XXX THRU XXX-2404-XXXX)
BINGO!!! Now I know my transmission had a build date with the plastic 2-4 piston installed. The bulletin went on to say the plastic 2-4 accumulator piston and seal ring should be replaced with an aluminum accumulator piston with two seal rings. When I dropped the pan and valve body and removed the piston, I found it cracked all along the top with a 3/8" diameter piece missing from the center. There are two things to point out about removing the valve body. First, make sure the manual valve lever (where the shift linkage attaches) is turned fully clockwise. This pulls the park sprag rollers out from under the park sprag guide bracket so the valve body will drop down. Second, when you start to drop the valve body, do so very slowly. There are two pistons with springs under the valve body that WILL drop out. As I was dropping the valve body, I reached in with my fingers on the side of the valve body closest to the engine and could feel the springs. I then held them in place while I dropped the valve body and then pulled them out so I could see which one went where. When I put the valve body back on, I did the same thing and held the springs/pistons in place while I put the valve body in place. A helper with an extra set of hands would work out nicely during reinstallation. Also remember to turn the manual valve lever back fully counterclockwise to install the linkage.
As far as the new piston, I got that from my local Chrysler dealer.
1 Piston needed (part number 4446620)
2 Teflon Seals needed (part number 4446544)
Total cost was about $25. Combine that with $40 for a new filter and 6 qts of ATF+4 tranny fluid and I got off cheap considering I could have had serious issues.
Once I got everything back together and started the car, I let it idle for a couple of minutes doing a leak check and then slowly went to each position until I felt it actually go into gear. It still gave me a code 35 loss of prime. It was like there was air in the system that had to work itself out but after taking it around the block a couple of times, I cleared the code and have been driving ever since. One other thing I noticed is that while my Underdrive Clutch Volume Index was really high before (all others normal) it's now within it's normal range.
So bottom line, the accumulator piston was cracked and when the system sensed the loss of pressure, it then went into "limp" mode but since the piston was cracked, there was no 2nd gear so it was like it shifted into Neutral.
I know this is a really long reply but this post was the only one I found that described the problem I was having. My hope is it might help someone else out if they run into the same issue.
With the new TCM installed, I finally got some codes....a 36 and a 52. The 36 code sounded really bad and made it sound like a rebuild was in order. I then read about the code 52 and the first thing for you to do was to check the build date on the transmission.
Now this in itself was a trick since the number on my transmission was K692-2181-5112. That may tell you something but it doesn't tell me a thing. Luckily, there's a TSB out there that helps. This is TSB 211595 dated 9/15/95 with subject Accumulator - Intermittent DTC's 36, 52, or 54 Set. The first thing I noticed on this was this:
NOTE : THIS BULLETIN APPLIES TO VEHICLES EQUIPPED WITH A 41TE OR 42LE TRANSAXLE THAT WAS BUILT BETWEEN SEPT. 1, 1994 AND JULY 14, 1995 (TRANSAXLE IDENTIFICATION CODE NUMBER XXX-2088-XXX THRU XXX-2404-XXXX)
BINGO!!! Now I know my transmission had a build date with the plastic 2-4 piston installed. The bulletin went on to say the plastic 2-4 accumulator piston and seal ring should be replaced with an aluminum accumulator piston with two seal rings. When I dropped the pan and valve body and removed the piston, I found it cracked all along the top with a 3/8" diameter piece missing from the center. There are two things to point out about removing the valve body. First, make sure the manual valve lever (where the shift linkage attaches) is turned fully clockwise. This pulls the park sprag rollers out from under the park sprag guide bracket so the valve body will drop down. Second, when you start to drop the valve body, do so very slowly. There are two pistons with springs under the valve body that WILL drop out. As I was dropping the valve body, I reached in with my fingers on the side of the valve body closest to the engine and could feel the springs. I then held them in place while I dropped the valve body and then pulled them out so I could see which one went where. When I put the valve body back on, I did the same thing and held the springs/pistons in place while I put the valve body in place. A helper with an extra set of hands would work out nicely during reinstallation. Also remember to turn the manual valve lever back fully counterclockwise to install the linkage.
As far as the new piston, I got that from my local Chrysler dealer.
1 Piston needed (part number 4446620)
2 Teflon Seals needed (part number 4446544)
Total cost was about $25. Combine that with $40 for a new filter and 6 qts of ATF+4 tranny fluid and I got off cheap considering I could have had serious issues.
Once I got everything back together and started the car, I let it idle for a couple of minutes doing a leak check and then slowly went to each position until I felt it actually go into gear. It still gave me a code 35 loss of prime. It was like there was air in the system that had to work itself out but after taking it around the block a couple of times, I cleared the code and have been driving ever since. One other thing I noticed is that while my Underdrive Clutch Volume Index was really high before (all others normal) it's now within it's normal range.
So bottom line, the accumulator piston was cracked and when the system sensed the loss of pressure, it then went into "limp" mode but since the piston was cracked, there was no 2nd gear so it was like it shifted into Neutral.
I know this is a really long reply but this post was the only one I found that described the problem I was having. My hope is it might help someone else out if they run into the same issue.