My struggles with the GV. handbrake -- round three.
#1
My struggles with the GV. handbrake -- round three.
As recently promised, here are pictures and tips on lengthening the GV handbrake lever, since there is sufficient room to do this. Also some pictures about 'round two' I forgot.
The mod. consists basically of removing the plastic handgrip from off the end of handbrake lever (easy), then slipping an 8" length of 1" scaffold-pipe over the end of lever. Happily, this just happens to fit nicely. It also happens if you remove the inner part of the plastic handgrip, what remains will fit just perfectly over the end of the 1" scaffold-pipe. You'll need to make the hole in the handgrip bigger (easy) so the next part, next para, will protrude, to be operated by your thumb.
You'll need a method of operating the release button down the scaffold pipe, this is easiest done with a bit of wood dowel cut to appropriate length slipped down the scaffold-pipe. It should be a slightly loose-ish fit, and to maintain sliding action, rub some candle-wax on the dowel. To get just enough friction between dowel and scaffold-pipe, I stuck a 2" length of self adhesive ordinary draught-excluder to the dowel as a friction strip. In my case, I used square-section dowel with the corners planed off, making a square-section a highly suitable place for the friction strip. sand down your friction strip if needed to get just the right friction The idea is to enable action on the release button by the dowel, but still keep the dowel in the scaffold-pipe Take off all the sharp edges from the end where your thumb will activate the protruding dowel.
This handbrake lever is quite non-linear in action, the mechanical advantage it produces varies over its operating range, being highest when at the top of its travel. The non-linearity is caused by the square-section spring's clutch drum being off-centre with respect to the swivel. The lengthening of the lever with an 8" length of tube as above simply increases the overall mechanical advantage -- I would guess by about 50%. It should be noted that this self-compensating handbrake lever only compensates for the cable stretch over time, NOT the wear in the brake shoes. This means once you have the shoes set properly, any permanent stretch in the cable will be compensated, and as these shoes in this application shouldn't wear hardly at all, this should be a "once and for all" adjustment. Unf. as with all cable brakes, it feels quite "rubbery" when compared to rod and swivel types. The very nature of the steel cable with its many wrapped strands causes this.
After well testing, you can lightly tap the scaffold-tube onto the existing handbrake lever to keep it in place. Use a little epoxy glue if necessary, but don't get it on anything vital.
Examination of the old brake shoes (see picture) revealed a silvery coating on the liners -- this could only have come from the brake drum -- the pic. shows also the broken end of liner.
Results of testing at Whitecoat Hill, Bramley.
1) The handbrake held well (in neutral) on the hill. Before, it was touch and go as to whether it would, with max. possible pulling force on the handbrake lever. The new shoes were NOT bedded-in at all. Applying the lever was much easier with a lot less force. There was plenty "spare" on the lever for more grip.
2) Applying the handbrake when moving produced a modest nose-dive of the front of the GV. This was quite impossible previously.
3) I think the major improvement concerns the grinding of the brake drums to get rid of cementite/pearlite layers*. The handbrake extension mod. simply made the lever easier to apply.
4) I would now describe the handbrake action as "adequate", but nothing spectacular. Sure will be an MOT pass however.
Leedsman.
*If there are any metallurgists reading this, your observations would be most welcome.
n.b. just thought of this -- when parked, apply the handbrake hard-on and remove the wood dowel operating piece and put it in your pocket. This should act as added security if you're parked in an "iffy" area.
The mod. consists basically of removing the plastic handgrip from off the end of handbrake lever (easy), then slipping an 8" length of 1" scaffold-pipe over the end of lever. Happily, this just happens to fit nicely. It also happens if you remove the inner part of the plastic handgrip, what remains will fit just perfectly over the end of the 1" scaffold-pipe. You'll need to make the hole in the handgrip bigger (easy) so the next part, next para, will protrude, to be operated by your thumb.
You'll need a method of operating the release button down the scaffold pipe, this is easiest done with a bit of wood dowel cut to appropriate length slipped down the scaffold-pipe. It should be a slightly loose-ish fit, and to maintain sliding action, rub some candle-wax on the dowel. To get just enough friction between dowel and scaffold-pipe, I stuck a 2" length of self adhesive ordinary draught-excluder to the dowel as a friction strip. In my case, I used square-section dowel with the corners planed off, making a square-section a highly suitable place for the friction strip. sand down your friction strip if needed to get just the right friction The idea is to enable action on the release button by the dowel, but still keep the dowel in the scaffold-pipe Take off all the sharp edges from the end where your thumb will activate the protruding dowel.
This handbrake lever is quite non-linear in action, the mechanical advantage it produces varies over its operating range, being highest when at the top of its travel. The non-linearity is caused by the square-section spring's clutch drum being off-centre with respect to the swivel. The lengthening of the lever with an 8" length of tube as above simply increases the overall mechanical advantage -- I would guess by about 50%. It should be noted that this self-compensating handbrake lever only compensates for the cable stretch over time, NOT the wear in the brake shoes. This means once you have the shoes set properly, any permanent stretch in the cable will be compensated, and as these shoes in this application shouldn't wear hardly at all, this should be a "once and for all" adjustment. Unf. as with all cable brakes, it feels quite "rubbery" when compared to rod and swivel types. The very nature of the steel cable with its many wrapped strands causes this.
After well testing, you can lightly tap the scaffold-tube onto the existing handbrake lever to keep it in place. Use a little epoxy glue if necessary, but don't get it on anything vital.
Examination of the old brake shoes (see picture) revealed a silvery coating on the liners -- this could only have come from the brake drum -- the pic. shows also the broken end of liner.
Results of testing at Whitecoat Hill, Bramley.
1) The handbrake held well (in neutral) on the hill. Before, it was touch and go as to whether it would, with max. possible pulling force on the handbrake lever. The new shoes were NOT bedded-in at all. Applying the lever was much easier with a lot less force. There was plenty "spare" on the lever for more grip.
2) Applying the handbrake when moving produced a modest nose-dive of the front of the GV. This was quite impossible previously.
3) I think the major improvement concerns the grinding of the brake drums to get rid of cementite/pearlite layers*. The handbrake extension mod. simply made the lever easier to apply.
4) I would now describe the handbrake action as "adequate", but nothing spectacular. Sure will be an MOT pass however.
Leedsman.
*If there are any metallurgists reading this, your observations would be most welcome.
n.b. just thought of this -- when parked, apply the handbrake hard-on and remove the wood dowel operating piece and put it in your pocket. This should act as added security if you're parked in an "iffy" area.
Last edited by Leedsman; 12-09-2014 at 03:36 PM. Reason: Addition.
#2
Got to ask this question. Even though you say the handbrake doesn't takeup the slack as shoes wear down, how come the last time I took off the disc/drums I had a hellafa job as they had taken up like an auto adjust type. Have other people noticed this.
Is there anything said in manual about resetting the handbrake on shoe replacement.
My handbrake now is totally gone but have discs & shoes on order as I reckon it will be metal to metal by now. Not quite the weather at mo though, but Bobbies asking you to blow into boxes, kicking your tyres and asking you if their ties are straight may warrant my parking brake to be able to work.
Is there anything said in manual about resetting the handbrake on shoe replacement.
My handbrake now is totally gone but have discs & shoes on order as I reckon it will be metal to metal by now. Not quite the weather at mo though, but Bobbies asking you to blow into boxes, kicking your tyres and asking you if their ties are straight may warrant my parking brake to be able to work.
#3
The auto-adjuster can only operate on the upper end of the cable where it's wound around the drum in the handbrake lever assy.. I had to adjust the brake shoe aduster anyway on the driver's side UK (far end of cable), the first one I did after grinding the drum to remove cementite/pearlite. This reduced immediate the number of "clicks" of the handbrake ratchet to about half, showing the auto-cable adjuster doesn't compensate for brake shoe wear. Not that there is much wear in practice anyhow.The compensation is obviously at the other end of the cable by the square-section spring and clutch assy in the handbrake lever. The adjuster has to have something to work against, that happens when the shoes are stopped from moving (and therefore so is the cable) by the brake drum. Only after that stoppage can the cable be compensated by the auto-cable adjuster device. I agree it's a bit of a poser to work out...
The actual adjustment takes place on releasing the lever.
Leedsman.
The actual adjustment takes place on releasing the lever.
Leedsman.
Last edited by Leedsman; 12-05-2014 at 04:10 PM.
#4
The American parking brake in the American system is foot operated on the rear wheels only, its cable adjustment [3 cables on a stow & go] is automatic by simply pushing the pedal to the floor and then letting it go. The diagnostics in the manual say that :
EXCESSIVE HANDLE TRAVEL
Cause - Rear drum brakes or rear disc brake parking brake shoes out of adjustment.
Solution - Adjust rear drum brake shoes, or rear parking brake shoes on vehicles with rear disc brakes
The export [including UK] version is the usual handbrake lever, and the manual says :
The automatic-adjusting feature in the foot operated parking brake lever continuously applies minimal tension to the parking brake cables when the parking brake lever is in the released position to keep them in adjustment at all times. Due to this feature, the parking brake cables require no periodic adjustment. When the parking brake lever is applied, the cables are pulled, thus applying the brake shoes (rear drum brakes) or parking brake shoes (rear disc brakes) at each rear wheel. The brake shoes are mechanically operated by an internal lever and strut connected to the rear parking brake cables. An equalizer bracket is used at the rear end of the front parking brake cable to distribute tension equally to each parking brake cable.
Then it gets complicated, long, and very pictorial and there are different instructions for stow & go and non-stow & go. Its far too long and too many pics to fit in a forum. You should really read it yourself in the [section BRAKES - BASE 5 - 6] 2005-RG-SM.pdf because you need to 'lock off' the cable adjustment equaliser under the car before you adjust the shoes. The adjustment of the parking brake cables on these vehicles relies on proper drum brake and park brake shoe adjustment to be done before the clock spring automatically adjusts the cables - not the other way round !
BTW I have never in a 7+ decade lifetime of self maintenance seen brake lining material like that shown by Leedsman, it looks sintered and must have resulted from the braked being locked on [sliding velocity] for hundreds of miles for the grey cast iron to reach temps around 300 °C.
Hope this helps your understanding, I'm off for a can of falling down water - then the cot.
EXCESSIVE HANDLE TRAVEL
Cause - Rear drum brakes or rear disc brake parking brake shoes out of adjustment.
Solution - Adjust rear drum brake shoes, or rear parking brake shoes on vehicles with rear disc brakes
The export [including UK] version is the usual handbrake lever, and the manual says :
The automatic-adjusting feature in the foot operated parking brake lever continuously applies minimal tension to the parking brake cables when the parking brake lever is in the released position to keep them in adjustment at all times. Due to this feature, the parking brake cables require no periodic adjustment. When the parking brake lever is applied, the cables are pulled, thus applying the brake shoes (rear drum brakes) or parking brake shoes (rear disc brakes) at each rear wheel. The brake shoes are mechanically operated by an internal lever and strut connected to the rear parking brake cables. An equalizer bracket is used at the rear end of the front parking brake cable to distribute tension equally to each parking brake cable.
Then it gets complicated, long, and very pictorial and there are different instructions for stow & go and non-stow & go. Its far too long and too many pics to fit in a forum. You should really read it yourself in the [section BRAKES - BASE 5 - 6] 2005-RG-SM.pdf because you need to 'lock off' the cable adjustment equaliser under the car before you adjust the shoes. The adjustment of the parking brake cables on these vehicles relies on proper drum brake and park brake shoe adjustment to be done before the clock spring automatically adjusts the cables - not the other way round !
BTW I have never in a 7+ decade lifetime of self maintenance seen brake lining material like that shown by Leedsman, it looks sintered and must have resulted from the braked being locked on [sliding velocity] for hundreds of miles for the grey cast iron to reach temps around 300 °C.
Hope this helps your understanding, I'm off for a can of falling down water - then the cot.
#5
Thanks for the observations Qinteq. I can only assume the park-brake shoes you mention had been binding onto the drum for a long time prior to my acquision of the vehicle (a common enough condition) -- unlikely the handbrake lever had been left on while driving as mine "bongs" away if you do this, even as little as one 'click' left on.
Tip: A quick check on this brake-bind point is to feel the ally wheels after a journey where you've not used the brakes much to see how warm they are, if at all. If one is warmer than the rest, you got a dead-giveaway you have bind on that wheel.
Leedsman.
Tip: A quick check on this brake-bind point is to feel the ally wheels after a journey where you've not used the brakes much to see how warm they are, if at all. If one is warmer than the rest, you got a dead-giveaway you have bind on that wheel.
Leedsman.
#6
You are welcome Leedsman, goggsy [#2] asked """Is there anything said in manual about resetting the handbrake on shoe replacement"" so I looked it up for him, posting it in a forum would have been a 'war & peace' length article.
Yes, when you posted the pic of the shoes I could not understand the chemistry of 'change', so I looked up the degrees °C needed - mind boggling picture M8, not something I suppose 99% of the car driving / repairing public has ever witnessed. Good on you for publishing, we now know what can happen if you drive from Dover to Manchester with the music loud and head in the cloud. It is understandable that so little is published about the mechanical and physical properties change as you would never expect to reach anything close to the temperature °C needed. It looks to me [a guess .. .. I'm not metallurgy minded] that carbon properties from the grey cast have been heat transferred to the shoe material rather than as I first thought from the shoes material breaking down and transferring to the grey cast.
Yes, when you posted the pic of the shoes I could not understand the chemistry of 'change', so I looked up the degrees °C needed - mind boggling picture M8, not something I suppose 99% of the car driving / repairing public has ever witnessed. Good on you for publishing, we now know what can happen if you drive from Dover to Manchester with the music loud and head in the cloud. It is understandable that so little is published about the mechanical and physical properties change as you would never expect to reach anything close to the temperature °C needed. It looks to me [a guess .. .. I'm not metallurgy minded] that carbon properties from the grey cast have been heat transferred to the shoe material rather than as I first thought from the shoes material breaking down and transferring to the grey cast.
#7
I'll take an educated guess the bad brake drum has been swapped with the other side at some time in the past, so that the bad shoes and the bad drum were both on the same side once.
The disappointing part of this is that "my man" who did the job (for money) of replacing the brake cable said nothing about the state of the brake parts, which was obvious. He has I think retired since as his garage is empty, and the man next door said he was working from home. Well, he's getting on in years, well past sell-by date unf. C'est la vie, c'est le guerre.
Leedsman.
n.b. I keep getting this saying on my mind -- "if you want a job doing right, do it yourself".
The disappointing part of this is that "my man" who did the job (for money) of replacing the brake cable said nothing about the state of the brake parts, which was obvious. He has I think retired since as his garage is empty, and the man next door said he was working from home. Well, he's getting on in years, well past sell-by date unf. C'est la vie, c'est le guerre.
Leedsman.
n.b. I keep getting this saying on my mind -- "if you want a job doing right, do it yourself".
Last edited by Leedsman; 12-09-2014 at 10:41 AM.
#8
At the risk of boring people to death I constantly post the same mantra on drum~in~hat.
(1) Service at garage level is usually carried out by bored inept young apprentices with their disinterested head listening to an overloud radio, so whilst """cleanliness is next to Godliness"" that is precisely what you will never ever get in a cars lifetime.
(2) Small parts kits that should last 20+ years or two car lifetimes need changing every 5 years.In the GV's case the letterbox sized hole in the backplate means there's more ice & crap in there every consecutive winter destroying, packing and deforming everything including the small parts. Add to that an ingress of more UK road salt than is stored on the pavements of Whitecoat Hill and you can see why I insist on a small parts set every 5 years - uber cleanliness - and lashings of squirt on copperslip.
- always amazes me, I've got my own optical lathe and it costs peanuts in time or money to skim a couple of inboard surfaces
- the real costs in time or money is the stripping out and replacing the parts once skimmed
- no substitute for that, never will be, any fool can make a mess of something if their only motivation is doing the minimum
- and the minimum is what the powers that be give as a 'time allowed' to the apprentice or junior
- take no more than 15 minutes a corner charge the job out at 85 minutes at corner + VAT
(1) Service at garage level is usually carried out by bored inept young apprentices with their disinterested head listening to an overloud radio, so whilst """cleanliness is next to Godliness"" that is precisely what you will never ever get in a cars lifetime.
(2) Small parts kits that should last 20+ years or two car lifetimes need changing every 5 years.In the GV's case the letterbox sized hole in the backplate means there's more ice & crap in there every consecutive winter destroying, packing and deforming everything including the small parts. Add to that an ingress of more UK road salt than is stored on the pavements of Whitecoat Hill and you can see why I insist on a small parts set every 5 years - uber cleanliness - and lashings of squirt on copperslip.
bad brake drum has been swapped
- the real costs in time or money is the stripping out and replacing the parts once skimmed
"if you want a job doing right, do it yourself"
- and the minimum is what the powers that be give as a 'time allowed' to the apprentice or junior
- take no more than 15 minutes a corner charge the job out at 85 minutes at corner + VAT
#9
You guys have been reading too much on Shakespeare and the truth out there is, odds are on, that I'm going to have a hellafa problem removing my disc/drums from the shoes.
Unless of course I push away the three witches dancing around the handbrake singing, "Tis up, Tis up, Adjust yea up, no man of mortal birth shall remove thee drum without passing blood on fighting the dreaded Clock Spring.
Unless of course I push away the three witches dancing around the handbrake singing, "Tis up, Tis up, Adjust yea up, no man of mortal birth shall remove thee drum without passing blood on fighting the dreaded Clock Spring.
#10
You guys have been reading too much on Shakespeare and the truth out there is, odds are on, that I'm going to have a hellafa problem removing my disc/drums from the shoes.
Unless of course I push away the three witches dancing around the handbrake singing, "Tis up, Tis up, Adjust yea up, no man of mortal birth shall remove thee drum without passing blood on fighting the dreaded Clock Spring.
Unless of course I push away the three witches dancing around the handbrake singing, "Tis up, Tis up, Adjust yea up, no man of mortal birth shall remove thee drum without passing blood on fighting the dreaded Clock Spring.
- read the [section BRAKES - BASE 5 - 6] 2005-RG-SM.pdf manual, and keep it on your desktop
- .................................................. ............................. its nearly all pictures
- method clamp cables first - brakes & drum second - handbrick lever last
- buy a small parts bag + squirty copperlip in advance, if its bad borrow a plumbers torch
- get the good lady to come out every 30 minutes with hot coffee and a digital camera - and post a 'walkthrough' on this forum for others
- if you live near me I'll lend you 4 stands and 2 hydraulic jacks for security